"When Jesus prays to the Father, is He praying to Himself? Therefore the Trinity is false." This is what amounts to a clever argument in some circles and people in those circles happily wag their heads "ooh, you've got them!"
It's not so much the argument, but rather the people that think it is clever and decisive that gets me. You see, you've got three basic camps in Christianity:
1) Unitiarianism (God=Father=Jesus=Holy Spirit; God shows himself in different "modes" at different times)
2) Arianism (God=Father, Father != Jesus, Holy Spirit=?), and finally
3) Trinitarianism (The Father is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God, but the Father is not Jesus is not the Holy Spririt).
When an Arian uses the above argument, it's not clever. It's irrelevant.
Trinitarians aren't Unitarians. They don't believe Jesus IS the Father.
Trinitarians use that argument to REFUTE Unitarianism.
Ignorance is understandable. We all have things we don't know.
When an Arian proclaims that this is a clever argument, he is trumpeting from the rooftops that:
1) he doesn't understand Trinitarians,
2) that he has not really studied the scriptures concerning Trinitarian arguments, but worst of all,
3) he doesn't believe it is necessary to understand the Trinity in order to preach to Trinitarians.
Ignorance is forgivable. Pride, less so. Pride mixed with abysmal ignorance is just bad taste.
It's not so much the argument, but rather the people that think it is clever and decisive that gets me. You see, you've got three basic camps in Christianity:
1) Unitiarianism (God=Father=Jesus=Holy Spirit; God shows himself in different "modes" at different times)
2) Arianism (God=Father, Father != Jesus, Holy Spirit=?), and finally
3) Trinitarianism (The Father is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God, but the Father is not Jesus is not the Holy Spririt).
When an Arian uses the above argument, it's not clever. It's irrelevant.
Trinitarians aren't Unitarians. They don't believe Jesus IS the Father.
Trinitarians use that argument to REFUTE Unitarianism.
Ignorance is understandable. We all have things we don't know.
When an Arian proclaims that this is a clever argument, he is trumpeting from the rooftops that:
1) he doesn't understand Trinitarians,
2) that he has not really studied the scriptures concerning Trinitarian arguments, but worst of all,
3) he doesn't believe it is necessary to understand the Trinity in order to preach to Trinitarians.
Ignorance is forgivable. Pride, less so. Pride mixed with abysmal ignorance is just bad taste.
So, I would say that my question is, can someone explain the trinity in a way that makes sense? Because the way that you have written it translates into this:
ReplyDeleteA=B, A=C, A=D, But B does not = C, and C does not =D. It's mathematical nonsense. (This is where generally they would hide behind "Well, God's ways are higher than our ways", etc. It's a weak response to an obvious concern.)
Here is another question: I really do not understand the reason for believing that the Holy Spirit is a being. I can see where some would read certain scriptures and therefore believe that Jesus could be thought of as God, but I've never read anything that could be interpreted as the Holy Spirit being it's own person. Could you please explain that point of view to me? I've just never understood that.
One problem is that the Trinity is not math. Moreover, if the universe, with all of its physical rules, physics with mathematics used to describe it, has a Creator, that Creator is necessarily not subject to those rules. In our math 1 can never be 3, nor can 1+1+1 be 1. But we limit God when we say, because we can't understand how the Eternal Almighty exists at his fundamental nature, that God must be something else.
DeleteWhen we use constructs and tools normally used to describe the Created universe, especially because we our limited created beings, to be honest, we have to admit that at best we may only approximate the non-created Creator only as far as he has revealed parts of himself in the Creation.
So we don't understand the Trinity. But does anyone truly understand what being Eternal means? It's an abstraction in our head. We define it, but no one has any clue what never having beginning or ending really means. The only thing is, we're comfortable not knowing for the second, but skeptical of the first.
The reason for believing that the Holy Spirit is a being is simply that scripture teaches it, for example when Jesus describes the Paraclete as coming to replace him, or Paul says the spirit actively intercedes for us with the Father when we don't have the capacity to pray. If the Bible describes the Spirit as a personal being, and all the qualities of God are attributed to him, then to say otherwise is to deny what God revealed about himself. For example, if Thomas falls down at his feet and worships Jesus saying "my Lord and my God" and we can't without hesitating say the same, then we aren't worshiping the right God, but instead our simplified imagination of him. It isn't enough to worship a being called Jehovah -- you ought to worship the Jehovah of the Bible.
The Trinity is a simple concept to describe. It has three premises drawn directly from scripture:
1) There is one God
2) There are three persons in various verses described as God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
2a) Father and Son are both called "God" and "Jehovah" and are directly worshiped
2b) Father, Son and Holy Spirit are described as sovereign, independent, conscious beings who possess qualities that only a single God can by definition have (e.g.: omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, etc.)
3) Father, Son and Holy Spirit work in complete, 100% harmony, even with differing roles in creation and redemption.
Two incorrect ideas have emerged trying hard to reconcile these things and make it easier for us to wrap our minds around God:
1) God is three persons, so he must be completely separate and only one can properly be called God. (This denies especially that the Word/Jesus was un-created -- John 1:3 and every time the Word is called God or Jehovah).
2) God is one person only, who show himself in one of three forms at any time. (This denies that the Father and Jesus and the Spirit are separate and they have a relationship with one another).
So we say they are three persons, united in name, in substance and in harmony. Hence a Tri-Unity. Non-biblical name, absolutely biblical concept.
Somehow, you have A != B != C and at the same time A=B=C and also A=G, B=G, C=G
Easy to describe. No one understands. The only difference is that, knowing that this is what the scriptures teach, I'll just take God's word on it.