Monday, November 12, 2012
RFC: Tribulation Rapture, Pre or Post?
A Request for Comments concerning the Rapture and the Tribulation
Some months ago I listened to several sermons covering the end-times. The prevailing view in my circles is that a pre-tribulation rapture is the most common-sensical interpretation of Jesus' return to earth for his people, and other options create too many inconsistencies to be valid. This was my thinking until recently when I began to find some of the explanations of this position to be unsatisfying. The more I've tried to lock down the better arguments, the more I've been left with deeper questions as to what the scriptures actually say, until finally I find that the simplest interpretation appears to be that Christ returns in glory to judge the world and gather his saints after the Tribulation and just prior to the First Resurrection mentioned in Rev 20. Furthermore, I am unable to confirm in any passage I've covered that Christ returns prior to the Tribulation to rapture those Saints living at that time and previously dead, sparing them going through this period of intensity for the world.
I'm submitting my understanding, formulated as well as I can, as a request for comments either to confirm that this is the most reasonable interpretation of scripture or to point out where I've gone wrong.
For this first post, it may be helpful to provide my understanding of the common view of a pre-tribulation rapture, to be tested against scripture in the following posts. I'll cover the scriptures I believe weigh in most heavily on Jesus' appearance in the end times and finally I'll address some of the objections I've run into. I'll include both in-line and at the end objections from several respectable persons to whom I submitted these thoughts in advance. I'd like to thank them for having read through what is assuredly an overly long piece and taken the time to provide criticism.
Firstly, my understanding of the prevalent view in my circles is that at some unexpected point in time, with no prophesied events that must absolutely precede it following Christ’s ascension, you have a rapture event. Christ’s return is still invisible and undetected by the world, but the effect is the removal of saints, living and long dead, such that they are spared the Tribulation that follows. The Tribulation culminates in Armageddon, Christ’s triumph over the world’s and Satan’s armies, and the destruction of Babylon, the wedding of the Lamb, and the destruction of the Beast. Then comes the First Resurrection, 1000 years, then Second/Judgment Resurrection and finally the eternal state/New Jerusalem/New Earth.
For this rapture, my understanding of this position is that it is not yet Christ’s apocalyptic revealing in glory, though the effects are likely undeniable to the world. That revealing in glory comes later, in Revelations 19.
Further, this consequence of this view is that the First Resurrection, explicit in Rev 20, occurs in two parts, with part 1-A happening before the Tribulation, and 1-B before the 1000 years and after Jesus' return to earth with his heavenly armies.
(Note: I do not consider this a salvation critical doctrine and I know a great many people I respect as my elders in Christ who hold to a wide range of variants on the main positions, pre-, post- and mid-tribulation raptures.)
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Some of the items I've found that constrain my thinking on the rapture are the following:
ReplyDelete*There is evidence in Scripture of God preserving his people through times and places of judgment (Noah, Daniel, Shad.Mesch.&Abednego, and others), and of God taking his people out from a place prior to bringing supernatural judgment upon it (Lot).
*There is no evidence or warning that Christians will undergo the wrath of God.
*Christians will undergo persecution by evil men and the kingdom of the evil one.
*The only groups mentioned as being preserved through the tribulation of the 70th week are 144,000 elect Jews (12k from each tribe), and two prophetic witnesses with supernatural powers.
*The church (by any of its labels... Christians, ecclesia, believers, etc) is rather strangely never mentioned during the tribulation/70th week descriptions in Revelation. This is particularly odd given this is part of the NT and would be the most expected place to provide warning and instruction related to what we should do in such a circumstance, if indeed we are destined to go through it. The only mention is of martyrs coming out of the tribulation, which most likely refers to those saved during the tribulation.
*The 70th week is distinctly for the redemption of the Jewish people, Israel, not the Gentile church which is already redeemed.
These elements have given me the most trouble with some aspects of a post-tribulational rapture.
Thank you. I have had similar concerns.
ReplyDelete1) There's a lot of evidence of God removing people prior to judgment, however, in many cases the good and the bad were in the same boat, even as God looked after the good. Case in point is Revelations 7 with the sealing of the 144,000 who go out into the world during the tribulation. We can say the church by virtue of God's grace is removed, but here is another group of faithful who continue into it. Another is Elijah, moaning that he alone in Israel is left, to whom God reveals that he has kept for himself 7,000 more throughout this period of wickedness. Isaiah was preserved through the removal of Judah and Israel, preaching until no one was left, but himself preserved. Finally, the Israelites suffered through several of the Egyptian plagues before they ceased to affect Goshen. In this case, God's people stayed put and the plagues were redirected.
2) Quite right, but there despite the tribulation being described as God's wrath, so are other horrible events in Israel's history. Even the redeemed, suffering even secondary consequences of God's wrath on unbelievers, aren't under God's wrath itself and they may be removed from or preserved through it. When we talk about promises to keep us from God's wrath, as many of these verses show, I think the context is more divine, judgment throne wrath for sin which the atonement directly cancels.
3) Agreed. Of course, throughout the tribulation, the kingdom doesn't seem to begin properly until the 1000 years start.
4) My thinking is that the 144,000 may well be a small subset of the church which has largely died out by this point. From Rom 11, all Israel is saved with the salvation of Jews, Gentiles and then Jews again. This may well be the tail end of that whole salvation. The church at this point is once again Jewish.
5) Clearly those martyrs were saved during the tribulation. I think that's the last of the Gentile/mixed church.
6) Again Rom 11, and so all Israel is saved.
My problem is that I think we're making these distinctions between Church, Great Multitude and 144,000 where we don't have this explicit in scripture. What I've been looking for are scriptures that directly say Jesus returns for the Church prior to the Tribulation and they are spared any part in that time. But in what I've covered starting from the next post, I think I find the opposite.
Thanks for the reply. It is important not to confuse the concept of a Gentile church with Israel. When that happens, confusion reigns. There is no "Church" made up of Jews, then Gentiles, then Jews again. You will have a hard time finding "Church" with a capital C at all in Scripture. It's simply a modern conception used to describe the body of believers during this age from shortly after Pentecost until the 70th week begins.
ReplyDeleteThere has always been a mixed group of elect believers throughout history that began with Gentiles (pre-Abrahamic; think Enoch, Noah, Job, etc), then during the period of the Old Covenant it was predominantly Jews as a nation but also some Gentiles, then the NT church that began as predominantly Jews and then transitioned to predominantly Gentiles over the centuries, and finally during the 70th week, the focus returns to Jews specifically and the elect described as being brought through that period are Jews, while the many saved by their witness among the nations are apparently martyred.
There is more to say but time running short. Recommend study of the 70 weeks prophesied in Daniel and note their distinct nature and purpose. It has to do specifically with the Jewish people, and the 70th week lines up with the tribulation period described in Revelation.
God bless.
I agree in part with not confusing them -- and I'm especially wary of "replacement theology" thinking. By that 70th week, we're back to Israel. The question do we have a in scripture clear statements that the Church is taken up in Rapture, prior to the return of attention back to Israel. Agreed that the 70th week deals with the Jewish people. Many thanks.
ReplyDeleteThat's just it -- we don't have clear statements. But we also don't have anything stating the opposite will be the case either. It's simply not something that is mentioned one way or the other in the sort of specificity we would like. That what makes it a mystery.
ReplyDeleteI think because it's not spelled out clearly, some theologians look at that and run probability on it in their mind -- What's more likely: Would God not warn us about having to prepare to endure a period of extreme hardship and judgment, or would God not warn us because he's going to remove us from the location of judgment? And some determine the latter is more probable.
Personally, I would advocate being prepared to endure tough times and persecution, as they will come upon most of us regardless, but also look expectantly for the Lord's return. :)