Wednesday, November 14, 2012

RFC: Tribulation Rapture, Objections part 1


Objection:
“The rapture of the church must happen before the coming of Jesus to earth in glorious judgment. Why is that? Well for the obvious reason that there be no reason to remove us from earth after Jesus has already come back to earth to establish his visible reign from Jerusalem. That makes no sense at all. The rapture after Jesus lands on the planet becomes irrelevant. It’s not needed anymore. What’s the point of rapturing us off when Jesus has already come back to the planet and set up his kingdom?”

While a timeline making sense helps reinforce what we believe, I had difficulty taking it as a reason. If the rapture is combined with the second coming during the Rev 19 timeframe (which is also when the marriage of the lamb occurs and the beast is defeated) it may make perfect sense to God and I’m just having difficulty processing it where I thought another way made more sense.


Objection: There are Distinctions between rapture and second coming
“There are major, major distinctions between the rapture and the second coming, proper, when he comes to earth.”

“At the rapture, the saints will meet Christ in the air, whereas at the second coming the Lord descends to the mount of Olives. At the rapture, the Lord comes to save us. There is no judgment found in any of the rapture passages.”

I don’t think that’s quite correct. While there may be time compression in play with 1 Cor 15, the whole argument of the existence of a resurrection for believers is flushed out with the timeline where Christ is raised first, then those who are Christ’s, then the end when Christ’s enemies become his footstool. Even with time compression, the use of these terms directly associates Christ dominating the world with the resurrection.

2 Thess 1, while not categorically a “rapturing into the air” passage, puts relief for the living believers (“you”) together with a return in mighty judgment in the very same time frame.

As noted above, many of the time frame elements seem very similar from passages that do mention judgment to those that mention rapture events. It’s not as solid a connection as passages that mention both, but the fact that both details and time frame elements seem the same, should also legitimately link the two events.
The common recurrence of believers being alive for both second coming and rapture events also should link the two.


Distinction:
“There’s no mention in John 14 of Jesus returning to earth to take the throne and judge the world and to slaughter his enemies. In clear contrast, the emphasis of the second coming passages is judgment, judgment, judgment.”

In the same way we tend to talk about different components of a doctrine (e.g. sun hardens the wax, softens the clay), it may or may not be significant that even if we see common time frame elements, since the rapture of the saints and the judgment of the world are different concepts, they can be handled separately in the texts.


Distinction:
No mention of a millennial kingdom mentioned in the rapture passages.

There is also no mention of a millennial kingdom outside of Rev 20 so that wouldn’t necessarily work one way or another. Pre-Revelations mentions of the “kingdom” seem to condense elements of what we associate with an eternal kingdom, with eternal qualities, into a simple word. The 1000 years is a fixed span period where, despite ruling saints and Satan bound, you still appear to have sin and rebellion and even potentially death, which seems to set it somewhat apart from earlier promises of the kingdom being forever and pain free, etc.

It may or may not be the 1000 years kingdom that in 2 Thess 1 we’re counted worthy of, for example, especially since our inheritance is to be eternal. Christ ruling from Jerusalem could potentially describe both the 1000 year kingdom (where a capital is not explicit) or the New Jerusalem eternal state which has been turned over to the God. So the absence of “kingdom” references in rapture passages, I don’t think can be conclusive.


Distinction:
All believers will be removed from the earth (at the rapture). At the second coming all unbelievers are removed. Only believers make it into the messianic kingdom.

I’m weaker on this point, but from Rev 19, the massive slaughter and destruction seems limited to the leaders and soldiers of the armies, when beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. I can’t find anything here that explicitly says all unbelievers are destroyed. From 2 Thess 1, we know that Christ’s second coming ushers in final judgment. Rev 20 has an explicit timeline where First Resurrection precedes 1000 years precedes Second Resurrection and final judgment. The Second Resurrection has writing that suggests a totality of the scope of this action over dead people. That is, if at the Second Coming exactly Christ condemns unbelievers at that point and the Second Resurrection is for any unbelievers who come after (e.g. rebels at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is loosed), this language seems to be more comprehensive then dealing with a subset of unbelievers. And its at the Second Resurrection that death/hades (seemingly unending conditions) are ended and people are consigned to eternal punishment. The eternality of these qualities suggests strongly that Rev 20 is the un-compressed timeline of the judgment theme that is normally compressed into his second coming.

So I’m not yet convinced that unbelievers are all wiped out before the 1000 years. Even if they are, there are still unbelievers during the 1000 years anyway. Too, if the rapture is pre-Tribulation, clearly from the Revelation there are also still believers. So the symmetry of believers removed at the rapture, followed by only unbelievers during the Tribulation, followed by only believers in the 1000 years doesn’t seem to stand well.


Distinction:
1 Thess 4:13-18 Only believers see Christ.

While the passage only talks about the believers and Christ, I don’t think it shows conclusively that no one else sees him either. Only believers are in view here, but I expect this passage would give neither a pre-Tribulation or post- position much difficulty. The language, however, is consistent with the trumpet call in Matt 24 when the whole world does see and mourn Christ. Maybe the same trumpet, maybe not, but the language seems common to most of these passages.

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