Wednesday, November 14, 2012

RFC: Tribulation Rapture, Objections part 3



Addressed: 5 Reasons the rapture takes place before the Tribulation:

Argument FOR the rapture: “Belief in an “any-moment” return of Christ… every other view nullifies this. Something always has to happen first, and people say get ready. If something must take place before an event happens, that event is not imminent.” Jas 5:7-9, 1 John 2:28


First, the verses for this argument:

James 5
7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Here James prescribes patience. There is then an implied reason for some impatience or desperation. Further patience recommended is along the lines of a farmer waiting for the one things that is absolutely crucial to his livelihood, that his efforts cannot in the least affect, and which will bring him the thing he most hopes for. So this is the culmination of his hopes and efforts which he waits for.

The implied reason in the next verses is their suffering. Like the prophets and Job they are told to endure so they can see the ultimate end of their hope and suffering in blessing full of compassion and mercy.

However, despite the imminence of the Lord’s coming, this doesn’t in and of itself preclude other events that may precede it which may be of themselves imminent.


1 John 2

28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

This doesn’t seem to address the particulars of Jesus’ imminence beyond that we should be ready and unashamed of our efforts.

The question I have from this argument of imminence is in outright excluding any antecedent event which could also be considered part of the main event, or excluding events which occur with varying intensity or frequency which in and of themselves cannot lead to an exact prediction of when the main event occurs, even if they are a recognizable prelude to it.

First you have, Matt 24. V36 has an explicit “no one knows the day or the hour” which immediately follows a brief analogy of observing a fig tree to know when the summer is near. This is after we talk about a time of distress, the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the sky, prior to Christ’s Second Coming. Moreover, we are told to learn the lesson of the fig tree (observing branches to understand the general season or time frame). After a reference to the people of Noah’s day being caught up to judgment not being aware, we are told to keep watch because we don’t know the day or the hour. And we are told to be ready, whenever that comes. The language, in this context, seems especially given in order to keep us away from the judgment that is coming that will fall on a less observant world.

So on the one hand, we don’t know the day or the hour. On the other hand, we are told to keep watch for signs (already given) so we are not surprised. This sounds like more than an implication that for the Second Coming, though no one knows the day or hour, there will be preceding, accompanying signs that give some deliberate clue as to how near things are.

If giving signs of the times is not incompatible with not knowing the day or the hour, and its in the context of this Second Coming with judgment that “we” are told to watch and be ready, then these are compatible things. So the argument that any event that could proceed a rapture and negate its imminence appears hollow in that Matt 24 shows that this is possible with respect to the Second Coming.

Similarly, Mark 13 is a parallel passage. In v29: Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[d] is near, right at the door. This is a Second Coming passage. We are told that “we” will see these things happening, including the Son of Man coming in the clouds. We are told to be alert, watching for the Lord’s return and ready, whenever that is. If there are no preceding signs, we can always be ready, but watching has no meaning. The fig tree analogy is utterly wrong and the events told us before in this chapter don’t actually help us.

It sounds like the difference between us and the world is that they don’t know any of this stuff will happen. We’re always ready whenever it happens, but when it starts to happen, even before a rapture event, we’re not surprised by the events, we know what they signal. We still don’t know the exact day or the hour, but we know when things are near because we have been told what to expect.

Admittedly, the larger consequence of this is that if a rapture is post-Tribulation, that means the whole host of events in Revelations between Chapter 4 and 20 must precede the rapture. As many as they are, if the events predicted in Matt 24 do not violate the “no one knows the day or the hour” then I have to assume if we are given a greater detail of these “days of distress” that this does not violate that sense of imminence either. Doesn’t make it easy, but I don’t think the argument of imminence is enough to force a less natural reading of the primary scriptures covered above.



Then the 5 argued reasons themselves:

Reason 1:

The church is specifically exempted from the wrath of God. 1 Thess 5:9, 1 Thess 1:10. This fits perfectly with a pre-Tribulation rapture. The tribulation events are the unfolding wrath of the Lamb of God.

Agreed, but we have to be careful in determining what wrath are we spared and how, knowing that there are different forms of wrath, some directed at people, some in general; some the church shares because it is in the world along with sinners, some we don’t (including eternal wrath) because we are redeemed. To outright say that we are to be spared from God’s wrath, and that since the Tribulation is God’s outpouring of wrath, we must be spared that ignores that we suffer from the consequences of God’s wrath (as per Rom 1) poured on the world for its sin, and even the Hebrews suffered alongside the Egyptians up to a point in their plagues.

1 Thess 5:9 should be read in the context of v8. We are to be sober, putting on love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For/Because God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you’ve got a contrast between suffering wrath and salvation through Christ, which is the reason for our behavior. Does this mean this can’t refer to any impact of Tribulation wrath which is directed against the world? No. But then, you have v10 which talks about Christ dying for us so we may live with him. While it is true generally that, in being saved we are no longer children of wrath and that Tribulation wrath can’t be directly applied to us by God, the wrath in view here is more likely eternal wrath.

Since we still suffer alongside the world in whatever judgments, acute or general, that God applies to the world as a consequence of being in it, this passage simply isn’t telling us enough to give us confidence that we will also be explicitly spared any presence in the Tribulation.

1 Thess 1:10 also begs the question of what coming wrath are we saved from? I don’t think enough can be read from this to explicitly say we will not be present during the Tribulation wrath. Especially in light of the explicit and implicit indications that we will from the scriptures above.


Reason 2:

1 Thess 4 Why didn’t God comfort them in their expected death rather than promising relief?

Possibly because even to that last moment, not all of the believers would be dead by the Second Coming if it coincides with a rapture event. The question is still essentially speculative.


Reason 3:

Rev 3:10 The promise to Philadelphia is to keep them (out) from the hour of trial coming on the whole world to test those who live in the world. Christ didn’t say they would be preserved through; different language would have been used.

I don’t think this is a good argument for the Church being spared the Tribulation period. Firstly, while the language certainly sounds like we’re talking about Tribulation trial and testing that comes on the whole earth, the reason Philadelphia is preserved is conditioned upon their enduring patience. Their being spared is a reward.

But Philadelphia is one of seven churches, many of whom are not as warmly received or rewarded. There’s no indication that other churches will be explicitly spared. While the letters to the churches may apply to all the church at all time periods, I think it gets into very complex arguments to argue either that Philadelphia can represent the whole church which will be spared, or that the churches must be time periods where, if Philadelphia is spared the tribulation, so must any subsequent church. In fact, that still doesn’t work because if the Tribulation happens after some Philadelpia, that puts Laodicea in the middle potentially and you’re still back to the original problem that some Christians endure the Tribulation. So at best, you simply have Philadelphia being spared, but no other mention.


Reason 4:

The rapture is for the church. The 7-year Tribulation time is for Israel to be prepared to receive Christ.

It makes sense from what I’ve long believed, but that’s not actually a proof. We know Israel is in focus after Rev 7 but we still don’t have an explicit declaration that all of the church is gone by then and its only Israel. Really, you need the church gone by Rev 4 to escape the Seals judgments which are horrific in and of themselves. Beyond the scene shifting to heaven which may mean something or nothing, we have no indication of such an incredible, crucial event for the church.


Reason 4b:

There must be several events that happen between the rapture and the Second Coming (e.g. the marriage).

This appears to be derived from the assumption that a pre-Tribulation rapture occurs around Rev 4, and at least before Rev 7. So then we get a list of events that happen between those chapters and Rev 19 where Christ comes in glory. But no explicit declaration of a rapture appears anywhere before Rev 19, so it’s an assumption if reasonable. We just don’t have any direct statement that suggests certain events must happen between a rapture and the Second Coming in glory/judgment.


Reason 5:

Complete lack of evidence that the church goes through the Tribulation. Church mention stops around Rev 6. If the church is meant to go through the Tribulation, even in part, wouldn’t this be mentioned? Major troubles in the world aren’t it. We go through those.

With the earlier verses in view, I think there’s even less evidence that we are explicitly spared this time period. Another problem is distinguishing Church from believing Israel. It’s still all one salvation (and so all Israel will be saved). We are no more/less the Church than the original Israeli believers. When the focus returns to Israel are they any more/less the Church when they turn to God? What we know is that there are believers after Rev 7. We’re only talking about Jewish believers at that point as God’s focus comes back to Israel. But you need some explicit statement to rule out any Gentile believers left. Most may have been raptured up, most killed prior to this, most may have slowly died off prior, but I don’t think this is conclusive one way or another. Again, the focus is now back on Israel, fulfilling Rom 11. The Gentile period of the church is clearly over. In the same way that Gentiles were not really in focus during Jesus’ ministry despite some forays in Samaria and the Gaderenes, maybe it’s not strange that the Gentile Church is no longer in focus by Rev 8. Again, I think something more explicit is needed to rule out any Gentile believers in this period.


A Parallel:
Parallel between pre-tribulation rapture and customs of Jewish wedding. Bride and groom remain hidden from view of those on earth for 7 days, then are married and show themselves in glory.

I really like this parallel. But it’s also a parallel. It works as long as the underlying verses demonstrate conclusively that the church is gone before those 7 years. But if that interpreting isn’t right, then the Jewish tradition can’t prove anything. We’d need something along the lines of, for example, type/antitype where temple sacrifices are declared to foreshadow Christs, or that Hagar or Sarah demonstrate the relationship between covenants.

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